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  • 15. Re: JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    henk de boer Master

    Jason Greene wrote:

     

    It was decided to separate delivering EE6 and a major architectural evolution in two separate releases so that developers wanting to build ee6 applications would have less of a wait. Note that AS5 took a long time, and developers where complaining that it was taking to long to get their hands on EE5.

     

    I personally think this was a really good decision indeed. JBoss AS 5 took a long time because of the micro container rebuild, which was basically unrelated to Java EE 5 support.

     

    Keep in mind that the community release series is about delivering innovation and cutting edge features as fast as possible. We don't have a long term conservative bugfix only stream, professional support, or strict compatibility requirements. That is what EAP is focused on providing.

     

    There is of course a tension between 'greedy' users wanting the prime version with ace support completely for free and 'money lusting' JBoss wanting to maximize their profits (note the qualifiers for both sides are meant humorously ).

     

    Somewhere both sides have to meet in the middle. It's unreasonable for users to ask everything for free, but JBoss has to offer something compelling to introduce new users to the platform, of which a percentage will eventually upgrade to EAP. The problem I see for JBoss is that they can't make AS 'too good', or otherwise nobody will buy EAP anymore, but if they make it 'too poor' it will create a major backlash and people will start to move away from JBoss.

     

    Am I correct in seeing it this way?

     

    With respect to JBoss AS 6, it's a brand new version of the platform and as such always contains some amount of serious bugs. The community has been providing JBoss the service of testing and providing more or less detailed reports. Even if every user only points out a small problem, then it's still a significant contribution that should maybe not be underestimated.

     

    The software my company builds is not really small (conservative estimate a tenth of the size of JBoss AS), but we have a user base that is not necessarily technically trained. This means we have to find all problems ourselves. If I take a look at some of the JIRA issues created by your user base, then I'm almost jealous. There is no way my users would ever provide such detailed reports.

     

    I can't speak directly for the other community users of course, but my feeling is that many expected another release of JBoss AS 6.x that fixed a couple of the most serious bugs. That way it would be 'good enough' for people who don't want to buy EAP for whatever reason. It will also be understood that further fixes and perhaps even more importantly timely security fixes are not provided for AS.

     

    This would be like the 5.x release. 5.0 contained some serious bugs, 5.1 was released relatively shortly after and was 'good enough'. Then the next 1.5 years AS users had to do without any updates (or hunt, compile and patch themselves of course).

  • 16. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    David Lloyd wrote:

     

    Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

     

    Boss: What!? So, what *is* their current supported community release

     

    Well we don't really have one.  If you want support and long lifetimes, we have EAP for that purpose.

     

    Yes, but it wouldn't have fit the flow of the story if the boss would have gone

     

    Boss: What!? So, what *is* their active branch that has passed a final release?

  • 17. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    Yes. I understand perfectly fine that you wanted to split the release into two parts since the EE 6 stuff can go in to AS 7 without many changes. I think what most would have appreciated around AS 6 M1 was something like

     

    "Hey guys. We have this really nice AS 7 on the way but in the meantime we're sticking the components into something we're calling AS 6. Please test it out and file JIRAs because the fixed stuff will automagically go into AS 7. However, we're not really thinking about fully certifying the AS 6 thing, and we might even EOL it quickly if AS 7 progresses as planned. So you might not want to install the AS 6 to customers in order to avoid embarrasing yourself."

  • 18. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Jason Greene Master

    henk de boer wrote:

     

     

    Thanks for the well worded and well thought out post.

     

    henk de boer wrote:

    With respect to JBoss AS 6, it's a brand new version of the platform and as such always contains some amount of serious bugs. The community has been providing JBoss the service of testing and providing more or less detailed reports. Even if every user only points out a small problem, then it's still a significant contribution that should maybe not be underestimated.

     

    I agree we have great users! The testing and analysis they provide is certainly very valuable.

     

     

    I can't speak directly for the other community users of course, but my feeling is that many expected another release of JBoss AS 6.x that fixed a couple of the most serious bugs. That way it would be 'good enough' for people who don't want to buy EAP for whatever reason. It will also be understood that further fixes and perhaps even more importantly timely security fixes are not provided for AS.

     

    This would be like the 5.x release. 5.0 contained some serious bugs, 5.1 was released relatively shortly after and was 'good enough'. Then the next 1.5 years AS users had to do without any updates (or hunt, compile and patch themselves of course).

     

    7.0.0 final is only a few months away (planned release is end of spring).  Do you still feel you need another release before then?

     

    Note that assuming we did actually do a 6.1, then the same argument of it being DOA would certainly apply as it would be very close to the 7 final date.

  • 19. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Jason Greene Master

    Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

     

    Yes. I understand perfectly fine that you wanted to split the release into two parts since the EE 6 stuff can go in to AS 7 without many changes. I think what most would have appreciated around AS 6 M1 was something like

     

    That's close but not entirely accurate. The purpose was to get an EE6 server into the hands of the community faster. A number of the components that make up EE6 could be reused (hibernate) but quite a few have new implementations (ejb).

     

     

    "Hey guys. We have this really nice AS 7 on the way but in the meantime we're sticking the components into something we're calling AS 6. Please test it out and file JIRAs because the fixed stuff will automagically go into AS 7. However, we're not really thinking about fully certifying the AS 6 thing, and we might even EOL it quickly if AS 7 progresses as planned. So you might not want to install the AS 6 to customers in order to avoid embarrasing yourself."

     

    I apologize for any gap in communication around these community releases. While the EAP/.ORG split happened quite some time ago, I think everyone is still not fully aware of the details. That is something we will try to improve on.

     

    Rich has a decent write-up he posted in Nov on this:

    http://blog.softwhere.org/archives/1035

     

    Your reply though leads me to ask a question. How many releases do you feel 6 should have to be adequate? Is just one additional release (a 6.1) enough?

  • 20. Re: JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    Jason Greene wrote:

     

    Your reply though leads me to ask a question. How many releases do you feel 6 should have to be adequate? Is just one additional release (a 6.1) enough?

     

    We would switch to AS 7 from AS 6.1 as soon as possible anyway so one version would be perfectly acceptable for us.

     

    It's not that I doubt your skills but if I can download AS 7.0.0.Final, complete with documentation on June 1, 2011 (my interpretation of "end of spring"), you can send me one of those red hats and I will send a picture of me eating it that you can post on your front page with the caption "Sorry, I didn't believe" ;-)

     

    This aforementioned fear of slipping is one of the things that make me desire at least the one 6.1 release.

  • 21. Re: JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Dimitris Andreadis Master

    Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

     

    It's not that I doubt your skills but if I can download AS 7.0.0.Final, complete with documentation on June 1, 2011 (my interpretation of "end of spring"), you can send me one of those red hats and I will send a picture of me eating it that you can post on your front page with the caption "Sorry, I didn't believe" ;-)

     

    This aforementioned fear of slipping is one of the things that make me desire at least the one 6.1 release.

    I can keep track of the bets for you guys, if you want. Who's next?  :-)

  • 22. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Elias Ross Master

    I think the treatment AS 6 deserves is the following:

     

    • JBoss does not provide patches or bug fixes. No features are added, except incidentally through shared component updates.
    • The community (aka somebody like me) provides patches for issues found.
    • Somebody at JBoss or a trusted community person takes over AS 6, applying patches and doing automated build testing to identify regressions.
    • Issues addressed in the AS 6 branch are eventually bundled into an official release, the first being 6.1
    • At regular intervals (every six weeks or so) a new release is made.
    • Component updates are applied as necessary.
    • The AS 6 branch is eventually retired after 6 months of AS 7 being out. Or maybe it just keeps going?

     

    Having a maintained legacy release allows users who can't switch deployment paradigms happy. AS 7 is radically different and will likely break more people apps than if users are switching to 6.

     

    Most popular open-source projects have a legacy release maintainer, for various reasons as well. Sometimes less chance of "surprise" is just cheaper for users.

     

     

    Another upside is, you're more likely to attract contributors if you provide more control over it to the community.

  • 23. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Stathis Rouvas Newbie

    Jason,

    Jason Greene wrote:

     

    Stathis,

     

    It was decided to separate delivering EE6 and a major architectural evolution in two separate releases so that developers wanting to build ee6 applications would have less of a wait. Note that AS5 took a long time, and developers where complaining that it was taking to long to get their hands on EE5.  So this time around we decided to base EE6 on AS5 technology. We could have called it 5.x but we felt that a very different set of spec APIs should cause a new major version. It also left the door open to do more 6 releases should 7 take longer than expected. So far things are executing to plan so we don't see a huge pressing need for another 6 interim release.

    I'm not questioning the rationale behind version bump, but as you akcnowledge it did represent a major architectural evolution. Don't you think that EOLing (in such a short time) such a major architectural evolution speeks badly for the evolution?

     

    Furthemore, consider the following chain of events, as I (a lowly developer) have observed them:

    1) Release of JBoss.AS.6 with shiny new features

    2) It turns out that 6 wasn't fully certified (certified only for the web profile)

    3) A flurry of activity spikes, in which JBoss (i'm using the term loosely) tries to convince everyone that the web profile certification is OK. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

    4) 6 is EOLd, so everyone who tried to sell 6 to managment is left to do its own dance. Furthemore the next version, i.e. 7, *is* going to be fully EE6 certified. So it seems that full EE6 certification matters after all.

    5) As forum postings show, JBoss (again using the term loosely) knew beforehand that 6 wasn't going to be a very long-lived release.

     

    Wouldn't it be better if the 6 release was marked "interim" or something from the very begining?

     

     

    BTW, developers will always complain about something. I know I do!

     

     

    Jason Greene wrote:

     

    Keep in mind that the community release series is about delivering innovation and cutting edge features as fast as possible. We don't have a long term conservative bugfix only stream, professional support, or strict compatibility requirements. That is what EAP is focused on providing.

     

    That said, AS is still open for the community to take it where they like. If someone wants to step up and continue 6, we would certainly provide assitance.

     

    Lastly, it's a bit much to say 6 is better off not existing. It's free code that is the result of significant man hours of work.

    I have hard time reconciling with this, especially coming from an open-source community member.

     

    You know that selling open source to the Heads, is difficult enough without open-source projects advocating a careless "toss-that-code-out-and-lets-see-what-happens" attidute. JBoss hasn't travelled that road in the past and I don't think it is going that way now.

     

    Having said that, before the Heads consider an EAP, proof must supplied that this "stuff" is suitable. How do you think that proof will originate from if not from the open-source version of the product? You don't need a lecture on open-source economics, certainly not from me.

     

    Jason Greene wrote:

    Lastly, it's a bit much to say 6 is better off not existing. It's free code that is the result of significant man hours of work.

    My issues are more with quality of communication surrounding the 6 release, not with the quality of the code, which I have no reasons to question.

  • 24. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Stathis Rouvas Newbie

    Dimitris Andreadis wrote:


    I can keep track of the bets for you guys, if you want. Who's next?  :-)

    Dimitris,

     

    as a Greek you should know that "megali mpoukia fae, megalo logo min peis"!

    I'm sure you can translate this to proper English.

  • 25. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Jason Greene Master

    Stathis Rouvas wrote:

     

    I'm not questioning the rationale behind version bump, but as you akcnowledge it did represent a major architectural evolution. Don't you think that EOLing (in such a short time) such a major architectural evolution speeks badly for the evolution?

     

    No AS6 is not an architectural evolution. AS6 is AS5 with EE6 WP++ capabilities, thats it. AS7 is the architectural evolution.

     

     

    Stathis Rouvas wrote:

    4) 6 is EOLd, so everyone who tried to sell 6 to managment is left to do its own dance. Furthemore the next version, i.e. 7, *is* going to be fully EE6 certified. So it seems that full EE6 certification matters after all.

     

    7.0 will not (and never has) targeted the full profile for the same reasons that 6 did not.  The delta between Web Profile + current specifications and the EE6 full profile is legacy technology that has extremely low usage. So low it's being pruned in EE7. This makes it very hard to justify prioritizing it. We do plan to do a 7.1 update to offer the legacy specs (which will at that point be a full profile), but that is primarily due to feedback/requests for some level of legacy spec compatibility to make certain migrations easier.

  • 26. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Jason Greene Master

    Stathis Rouvas wrote:

    Having said that, before the Heads consider an EAP, proof must supplied that this "stuff" is suitable. How do you think that proof will originate from if not from the open-source version of the product? You don't need a lecture on open-source economics, certainly not from me.

    If you really are after a long term stable-only patch stream, and are seriously considering a move to EAP, then you are better off using it for the basis of evaluation rather than the community release. It's still OSS, all of the code is available. The only difference is that you need a paid subscription to get binary images/updates. You can also get a no cost trial subscription.

  • 27. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Stathis Rouvas Newbie

    Usefull clarifications. Thanks.

  • 28. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Stathis Rouvas Newbie

    It's more complex than that.

    If a vendor product fails, that vendor sucks.

    If an open-source product fails, then open-source as a whole sucks and every other OSS decision is re-evaluated.

     

    Anyway, this is going off-topic now, let's not take this any further.

  • 29. JBoss AS 6 end-of-lifed???
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    Stathis Rouvas wrote:

     

    It's more complex than that.

    If a vendor product fails, that vendor sucks.

    If an open-source product fails, then open-source as a whole sucks and every other OSS decision is re-evaluated.

     

     

    If your management thinks that, it sucks. I wouldn't stop drinking free beer just if someone handed me a flat one once in a while.