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  • 30. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    Well, the Web Profile is an official profile that can be passed standalone...

  • 31. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Jason Greene Master

    But back on the topic of certificatio, If JBoss/RedHat had certified AS 6 and SpringSource came along and said "Hey, we have this EE 6 server, everything works but we haven't had the time to cert it", they would be smashed to the ground ;-)

     

    They hate EE though remember

     

    It's not about not having the time. It's about focus. Instead of spending time maintaining technology no one uses anymore (CMP, JAX-RPC, etc) we (and our contributors) decided to put our energy behind technology that improves application development. With EE6 specifically we had a significant role in evolving the platform, and if you look you'll notice that those technologies are all in the web profile (and AS6). We also include a number of other key technologies not in the web profile  (JAX-RS, JAX-WS, and JMS).

     

    Also keep in mind that these legacy technologies were already marked as pruned, so they aren't going to be in EE7. If, however, enough people asked for continued evolution of them, we would of course reconsider.

  • 32. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Chris Kriel Newbie

    It is a big shock to read that AS 6 has not been fully certified. It is my impression that most everyboby assumes every release will be certified. A mark of quality if you like.

     

    No documentation, partial certification, abandoned for AS7 before completion as it will not even make it into EAP. This surely amounts to a huge waste of the said scarce resources?

     

    My company is a EAP customer; how long will we have to wait for EE6? By that time we will already be looking forward to EE7!

  • 33. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Jason Greene Master

    Chris Kriel wrote:

     

    It is a big shock to read that AS 6 has not been fully certified. It is my impression that most everyboby assumes every release will be certified. A mark of quality if you like.

     

    No documentation, partial certification, abandoned for AS7 before completion as it will not even make it into EAP. This surely amounts to a huge waste of the said scarce resources?

     

    My company is a EAP customer; how long will we have to wait for EE6? By that time we will already be looking forward to EE7!

    What technologies in the full profile are you looking for a compliant implementation of?

  • 34. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Chris Kriel Newbie

    We need a compliant implementation of the full set of JEE6 technologies to maintain that level of freedom of choice in future designs. What we may never require somebody else surely will, so that still leaves you with the complete set.

     

    My issue is that I do not want to trust JBoss6 to be JEE6 compliant, I need it proven by certification since that absolves me from proving it myself. If it passed thousands of tests (some maybe senseless) to certify, it attained a proven level of quality which I don't have to take responsibility for.

     

    I am sure that most of the technologies are adequately covered in JBoss 6. Pity that this is only available as an uncertified community release. With inadequate documentation there is also a bigger risk and no option to buy support to compensate.

     

    We are not averse to using JBoss extensions. We though we could do that because against the background of a certified AS the context in which we are going non-compliant to the standard is clear and the risks therefore easy to understand. For example, in JBoss 5 we used the asynchronous EJB proxy because we thought that in JBosss 6 this will be part of the JEE6 certification.

  • 35. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Gerry Matte Novice

    I've been pondering when to upgrade my JBoss servers from 5.1 to 6.  As mentioned by many of the previous posters, certification as Java EE 6 compliant is one of my considerations so that I can be assured that the testing required to meet that certification has been successfully completed and my applications will continue to operate.

     

    I accept that resource constraints might delay the certification process so that the product's early releases may not yet be certified.  However I do believe it's essential that certification be carried as soon as possible once the early release is capable of passing the tests.

     

    Is there any part of the testing that could be performed by the jboss community ?  I am one of those who has always benefitted from the free community edition but has seldom given back to the community.  I'd be willing to donate some of my time if that would be of value.

  • 36. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Dimitris Andreadis Master

    Gerry Matte wrote:

    Is there any part of the testing that could be performed by the jboss community ?  I am one of those who has always benefitted from the free community edition but has seldom given back to the community.  I'd be willing to donate some of my time if that would be of value.

     

    I am not sure if the TCK license would allow this (i.e. provide access to the TCK to community members outside the licensee company).

  • 37. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    henk de boer Master

    Dimitris Andreadis wrote:

     

    I am not sure if the TCK license would allow this (i.e. provide access to the TCK to community members outside the licensee company).

     

    I fully understand it won't happen overnight and JBoss/Redhat doesn't have the final say in this, but can't this detail of the license be changed eventually?

     

    What if there isn't any company to begin with? Would a community group never be able to certify a product?

  • 38. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Dimitris Andreadis Master

    henk de boer wrote:

     

    Dimitris Andreadis wrote:

     

    I am not sure if the TCK license would allow this (i.e. provide access to the TCK to community members outside the licensee company).

     

    I fully understand it won't happen overnight and JBoss/Redhat doesn't have the final say in this, but can't this detail of the license be changed eventually?

     

    What if there isn't any company to begin with? Would a community group never be able to certify a product?

    Sometime ago it used to be like this, the community couldn't never certify a product simply because they couldn't affort the cost of licensing it.

    If I remember, that changed with "geronimo" under the auspicies of apache. (BTW - who remembers geronimo? ).

     

    I would have to find more details about that. I suspect it would involve special paperwork for every community member that would like to get involved. I guess we never had to deal with this question because working on the TCK is more like a punishement here, so it's hard to find volunteers!

  • 39. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Gerry Matte Novice

    Ouch.  Perhaps I should re-think my offer .

  • 40. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Jason Greene Master

    Chris Kriel wrote:

     

    We need a compliant implementation of the full set of JEE6 technologies to maintain that level of freedom of choice in future designs. What we may never require somebody else surely will, so that still leaves you with the complete set.

     

    Even for legacy technologies that no one uses anymore [at least for new projects] (CMP)?

     

     

    My issue is that I do not want to trust JBoss6 to be JEE6 compliant, I need it proven by certification since that absolves me from proving it myself. If it passed thousands of tests (some maybe senseless) to certify, it attained a proven level of quality which I don't have to take responsibility for.

     

    I am sure that most of the technologies are adequately covered in JBoss 6. Pity that this is only available as an uncertified community release. With inadequate documentation there is also a bigger risk and no option to buy support to compensate.

    AS6 passes the EE6 Web Profile TCK, and the JMS TCK and the JAX-WS TCK, and the JAX-RS TCK. It is certainly not an "uncertified" release. Also note that all the TCK tests is portability, it doesn't test the quality of your implementation (e.g. can it actually handle real world load)

  • 41. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Jason Greene Master

    Gerry Matte wrote:

     

    Ouch.  Perhaps I should re-think my offer .

     

    Yeah, it's unfortunate that the EE TCKs aren't open source, that anybody could contribute to (although some of them are, in particular the ones we have contributed [CDI TCK & BV TCK] ).

     

    Just like our software, we prefer testsuites be open, easy to run, and easy to contribute to.

  • 42. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Stuart Smith Newbie

    Jason Greene wrote:

     

    Chris Kriel wrote:

     

    We need a compliant implementation of the full set of JEE6 technologies to maintain that level of freedom of choice in future designs. What we may never require somebody else surely will, so that still leaves you with the complete set.

     

    Even for legacy technologies that no one uses anymore [at least for new projects] (CMP)?

     

     

    My issue is that I do not want to trust JBoss6 to be JEE6 compliant, I need it proven by certification since that absolves me from proving it myself. If it passed thousands of tests (some maybe senseless) to certify, it attained a proven level of quality which I don't have to take responsibility for.

     

    I am sure that most of the technologies are adequately covered in JBoss 6. Pity that this is only available as an uncertified community release. With inadequate documentation there is also a bigger risk and no option to buy support to compensate.

    AS6 passes the EE6 Web Profile TCK, and the JMS TCK and the JAX-WS TCK, and the JAX-RS TCK. It is certainly not an "uncertified" release. Also note that all the TCK tests is portability, it doesn't test the quality of your implementation (e.g. can it actually handle real world load)

    +100 for full Java EE 6 certification.

     

    You guys should remember that JBoss became the most popular open source application server because it was the first FULLY CERTIFIED open source application server.  Because of that place in history I think there is an expectation of full certification which many people will be surprised if that is not the case.

     

    You can make all the arguments you want about "legacy" technologies and even though I would agree with most of those arguments you have to realize that developers don't make the decisions.  These are made by development/project managers or business people that will not understand the difference.  Perhaps in the future when the concept of profiles is more understood and accepted but I don't think for the first version where it was introduced.

     

    There is a BIG difference between:

    • Java EE 6 Web Profile certified and other "additional Java EE features" and
    • Fully Java EE 6 certified

     

    The second option above is very easy to satisfy a decision maker that it is a good path to take.  The first just places a lot of extra burden of proof on developers trying to prove that JBoss 6 would be acceptable for use in a project.

     

    The previous post that talks about all the effort in meeting full certification proves exactly the value in providing it.  The extensive tests that must be passed by an application server prove that the functionality is there.

     

    In my mind EAP 6 must be full profile certified.  If this is going to be the case I am willing to excuse AS 6 as not being full profile knowing that AS 7 and EAP 6 will be.  After all, how could you continue to call it "Enterprise Application Platform" if it is not?

     

    I work with lots of clients that need to support applications they provide on multiple server platforms for their clients.  Telling these clients that JBoss EAP is not full profile certified would not sit well with them at all.  They would perhaps be forced to tell their clients that they could no longer support JBoss as the lack of full profile certification would not provide them the guarantee of compliance for their application.

     

    I predict that lack of full profile certification would force clients to look for other application server platforms which I assume you would want to avoid...

     

    Thanks,

    Stuart

  • 43. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    henk de boer Master

    Stuart Smith wrote:

     

    You guys should remember that JBoss became the most popular open source application server because it was the first FULLY CERTIFIED open source application server.  Because of that place in history I think there is an expectation of full certification which many people will be surprised if that is not the case.

     

    I continue to see exactly that in practice. Over the last weeks I talked with quite an amount of Java professionals and whenever the subject Java EE 6 and JBoss AS came up all of them were quite taken by surprise that JBoss AS 6 wasn't Java EE 6 certified. Apparantly people mostly just assume it is, since it is what JBoss has always been known for.

     

     

    You can make all the arguments you want about "legacy" technologies and even though I would agree with most of those arguments you have to realize that developers don't make the decisions.

     

    Indeed, and on top of that it's a truth of life that there are always parts in any certification that you might not totally agree with. With diplomas and degrees etc it's not that different. I enjoyed getting my master's degree in computer science, but a few courses were utterly pointless. Left overs from the old Math curriculum out of which computer science grew that were just not very relevant. Yet, to obtain the degree I had to pass all courses, and so I did.

     

    If the entire certification is crap, you can of course opt out of it and tell your customers that the certification simply doesn't have any value (and then hope they'll agree). But in this case it seems clear JBoss doesn't think the Java EE spec is completely crap. There are a few parts (EJB2, CORBA) that are painful, but it seems it are only a few parts.

     

    Also, how much has changed in the JBoss EJB2 implementation? If it was certified in JBoss AS 5, would it really be that hard to certify it again?

  • 44. JBoss AS 6 full Java EE certification
    Nicklas Karlsson Master

    OTOH, if JBoss would have announced a few months back that they would drop AS 6 and move directly to AS 7 (please wait for another 6 months or so) in order to incorporate some cool ideas and have the whole thing EE 6 certified then people would have been screaming their lungs out.